# Improving a herd



## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

I have a question for the masses. herd of cattle that is only bread to a regular bull. a bull that is bought at a farm. is it wise to bring in ai from a really good genetic BUll to improve the herd. okay I think I just answered my question. these cattle are not docile, they are somewhat a little bit wild. should I be getting that with new heifers, heifers I can start them early and bring their wild nature down. rather than to deal with a big cow that is a little bit wild?


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## Fairfarmhand (Dec 4, 2013)

It all depends on your handling facilities. If you have a good chute and alleys set up to make handling easier, it's not as hard as you think. 

You can breed to a good bull with a good docility score and keep his daughters as herd replacements. In a generation or 2 you may have some really great cows, but it will take some time. 

WRT to taming cows, get them used to your presence. Bring out feed to them and stand around. Stay calm and quiet and they may settle down for you more.


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## RanchWife (Jan 31, 2014)

We will run our cattle through the chutes for no reason, just so they're used to going through the chute.


www.calving2014.wordpress.com


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

Now that's a very good tip.


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## DBPMAINEANJOU (Jan 16, 2014)

we chose our Maine Anjou bull on his temprament as much as conformation any overly agressive types get culled .Your saftey is important why deal with a cranky 2000lb beast when you can deal with a quiet one


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

Yea working on culling all aggressive cows. So far a few have wanted to climb out of catch pen. A few foam at mouth trying to get to me. Pawing at ground. A real rodeo. 1 I had to keep a steel pipe with me in case she got stupid a charges me. She gone to stockyard sale.


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

These are descendents of what they call around here woods cows. Cows that have roamed these woods and never had human interaction. They've bred Angus , longhorn and Brahma in this herd. Culling in full effect. about 60% have to go.


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## RanchWife (Jan 31, 2014)

Select a bull bred for docility.


www.calving2014.wordpress.com


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

So would it be best to bring in AI ? And selectively breed


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## Fairfarmhand (Dec 4, 2013)

rene said:


> So would it be best to bring in AI ? And selectively breed


that's what I would do. From your description, they sound kind of crazy. Be careful!


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## DoubleR (Jan 15, 2014)

We are strictly an AI and Embryo operation anymore. I can produce better calves by picking and choosing sires that improve on the dam and produce the best marketable offspring. Best part in no bulls on hand to have to deal with anymore.


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## Fairfarmhand (Dec 4, 2013)

DoubleR said:


> We are strictly an AI and Embryo operation anymore. I can produce better calves by picking and choosing sires that improve on the dam and produce the best marketable offspring. Best part in no bulls on hand to have to deal with anymore.


We do AI too, keep a bull out of each year's crop as a clean up bull for the next year or two. Then we sell him for someone else's herd bull. I ran across a herd the other day that had to be embryo transplant because all the black mama's were nursing white Charolais calves. It was the oddest looking thing. but kind of neat too.


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## DoubleR (Jan 15, 2014)

That would be interesting. Lol! I've seen some in a local herd but not the whole herd. There is a Charolais operation here that uses black angus bulls and it's about a 50/50 split on calf color.


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

Well another truely crazy cow off to the sale. This one tried to bite me when I loaded her in the trailer. Wow!


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

Southern cattle have that around here. But I have 2 polled jersy bulls I was thinking of doin this. They were bottle calves .


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

Fairfarmhand said:


> We do AI too, keep a bull out of each year's crop as a clean up bull for the next year or two. Then we sell him for someone else's herd bull. I ran across a herd the other day that had to be embryo transplant because all the black mama's were nursing white Charolais calves. It was the oddest looking thing. but kind of neat too.


some of these cows here do this. Black mama black bull and out comes a speckeled heifer. Some blamed bull genes, I think it's the mama some longhorn gene


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

DoubleR said:


> We are strictly an AI and Embryo operation anymore. I can produce better calves by picking and choosing sires that improve on the dam and produce the best marketable offspring. Best part in no bulls on hand to have to deal with anymore.


Is there a way to improve the odds of the ai , I don't like 60 and 70% success.is it possible to get 90% or better?


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

rene said:


> These are descendents of what they call around here woods cows. Cows that have roamed these woods and never had human interaction. They've bred Angus , longhorn and Brahma in this herd. Culling in full effect. about 60% have to go.


I forgot simmental, in this mix.


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## Jonny (Feb 5, 2014)

rene said:


> Is there a way to improve the odds of the ai , I don't like 60 and 70% success.is it possible to get 90% or better?



The bull can only get 70% per serving. Over 3 cycles a good bull will get over 96% of cows pregnant.

Getting over 70% average via AI is better than a bull. Our local AI tech averages 80% and she has done hundreds of thousands of Cows over the last 30 years.
The main reason for a 70% conception rate per serving is cow factors. You can increase your odds by things like putting them on a higher plain of nutrition. Mate/inseminate on lengthening day length, use of hormones eg gnrh, pmsg.


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## DoubleR (Jan 15, 2014)

rene said:


> Is there a way to improve the odds of the ai , I don't like 60 and 70% success.is it possible to get 90% or better?



We run high 95-98%. With proper heat detecting and proper timing, absolutely that can be improved. Natural heat give higher pregnancy rates however we have excellent success with synchronization. The key is either doing it yourself or finding a truly invested tech who cares more about getting them bred the 1st time than the money. It takes some work but it's very worth it. Especially when pay day hits and you have a very nice uniform calf crop to sell.


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

I don't know y'all but the love is growing. Double r and Jonny y'all have got me to rethink going ai :thumbup::


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

how do y'all feel about the cluster of breeds such as what I got on my hands here? Although I see what he has done by selecting different breeds to ....hmm I just lost my thoughts .lol


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## DoubleR (Jan 15, 2014)

rene said:


> I don't know y'all but the love is growing. Double r and Jonny y'all have got me to rethink going ai :thumbup::



AI can be a wonderful tool if in the right hands.  I've never looked back.


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## DoubleR (Jan 15, 2014)

rene said:


> how do y'all feel about the cluster of breeds such as what I got on my hands here? Although I see what he has done by selecting different breeds to ....hmm I just lost my thoughts .lol



A LOT of ranches have crossbreds. The point is to produce the optimum animal and meat right? Sounds like that's what's been going on in your case maybe.


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

The calves are mostly black with a few exception . This pic the other morning . hmm meat... Good point.


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

I guess what made me think of improving the heard was that each generation has a smaller set of milk bags. I am not exactly sure why this is


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## DoubleR (Jan 15, 2014)

rene said:


> I guess what made me think of improving the heard was that each generation has a smaller set of milk bags. I am not exactly sure why this is



If you were to AI you'd want to look for a bull that adds udder.


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

Would bring in a dairy heifer or bull I bottle raise . Im thinking $ :-$


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## aidan (Jan 7, 2014)

Just a question how do I post a thing of my own


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## RanchWife (Jan 31, 2014)

DoubleR said:


> We run high 95-98%. With proper heat detecting and proper timing, absolutely that can be improved. Natural heat give higher pregnancy rates however we have excellent success with synchronization. The key is either doing it yourself or finding a truly invested tech who cares more about getting them bred the 1st time than the money. It takes some work but it's very worth it. Especially when pay day hits and you have a very nice uniform calf crop to sell.



I'm impressed, if we could get a success rate like yours we would probably switch methods. I'm curious How tight your calving season is and how many head do you run??? Do you start your heifers calving earlier?


www.calving2014.wordpress.com


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

DoubleR said:


> We run high 95-98%. With proper heat detecting and proper timing, absolutely that can be improved. Natural heat give higher pregnancy rates however we have excellent success with synchronization. The key is either doing it yourself or finding a truly invested tech who cares more about getting them bred the 1st time than the money. It takes some work but it's very worth it. Especially when pay day hits and you have a very nice uniform calf crop to sell.


How many did u go through before u found this?


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## DoubleR (Jan 15, 2014)

rene said:


> How many did u go through before u found this?



How many did I go threw? I'm not catching onto your question  lol! Sorry! Im probably just to tired


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

Im not sure how to put the question. Ok ... To achive this percent with AI , in ur experience wat has been a key factor to be able to get such high %. ?


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

This is the herd of cows here at home which I am taking care of for the property owner.


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

Yes it's swampy land. Can't even get the tractor in the edge of the field.


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## Dion (May 7, 2014)

I wouldn't use any dairy bulls (semen or otherwise). When you select a bull, select for docility, milk production. I'd go with a black hided bull to increase sale price per pound. And I think i would go with Angus or maybe Sim-Angus as a herd bull.


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

We had got a yearling brangus beginin of year. I got him a Lil trained he is nice n mellow.


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## Dion (May 7, 2014)

Brangus sounds like a good fit for your area. Black hide, angus influence and insect/heat tolerant.


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

no I did not know that they were insect tolerant. That is very good info. Hmm


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

well so far I think I've been able to improve on making sure these mamas raise these calves at a good profitable rate. they were born in December and January and weaning them off in July. but I believe these replacement heifers will be a little better than what has come out the last couple of years. I'm starting to feel satisfied


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

these are some of the little ones


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## DoubleR (Jan 15, 2014)

Good looking calves! Nice job!


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

Thank u DoubleR . i still have lots more to learn. I can now focus on hay fields( which i finnaly am able to cut due to flooding) and these grazing fields. All these beef cows r not mine but at this moment i am in charge of their care. I only have 1 brangus heifer all my other girls r jersy.


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

What was happening is that calves would take almost all year to come up yo sale size. Ive been setting a goal to bring them to weanin time at about 6 months. So far id say im doin ok. I could definitly do much better.


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## DoubleR (Jan 15, 2014)

Always learning  When you think you know it all your in trouble  Keep it up!!!


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## Dion (May 7, 2014)

Those calves look good.


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

Thank u Dion. It has costed me some $ to make others here realized the importance of nutrition. Ppl here see a big difference the last 4months. Profit is commin. I see iy walkin in the field. Next day or two i got some fresh cut clover n oats rolls. These fields i picked up on halves they are RANK in clover n oats waist high. Now my feed bill should reduce and ill have good rolls of hay for these lil fellas @ weaning time in 2 months alteast the ones ready to wean


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## Dion (May 7, 2014)

I'm telling you Rene, when I saw those uniform black/brown calves I was thinking "money". LOL I think just about anyone would be glad to have those running around their farm.


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

Dion said:


> I'm telling you Rene, when I saw those uniform black/brown calves I was thinking "money". LOL I think just about anyone would be glad to have those running around their farm.


Every one here is excited to see the outcome at the sale. They noticed the change in the herd. I feed them when i come home at about 330am . The cows eat and then lay down for a good 4 hrs. Ive been feedin them soaked corn, or soured corn(its a raunchy smell) its turnin to beer. All the extra jiuce i put in trough and they drink it all up. They fat folks here are now addin extra nutrients to the batch like electrolytes or cotton meal. I still need to learn more i really dont know much. but i belive, i wont settle for mediocrity. I think i got nutrition on the right track. The grazing pastures ....idk.


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

Here is an update. We had all our water tested from the well to the hand dug well the pond the swamps the water troughs the metal ones and the plastic ones and come to find out that the pH levels in the pond were so acidic it was eventually killing our cows. So now we are looking at our entire water management program


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

All the metal water troughs the water was only good for one day before the pH levels in it were to a poisonous level


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

It was advised us to give them a mixture solution farmer grade my Pharm grade baking soda mixed with water drenching all the cows and putting that in the water for balancing pH levels acid levels in the animals as well as all the water


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

That was baking soda and Garden lime mixed with water


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

It will take care of the Flies on these animals during the summer and it will keep them cooler they will be grazing more in the Sun with no problem something we are going to put into effect immediately and try


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## Dion (May 7, 2014)

wow . You are amazing to be able to deal with a problem like that.


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

All ponds and swamps are going to be fenced off. We were advised to pump the swamp and pond water into our fields. This will allow fresh new spring water to seap up to fill these ponds and swamps. We also have duck weed in pond so he said (the water managment man) to pump this for silage for cows. To only have plastic water troughs.


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

Everyone has seen a difference here. Ranch owner is followin my lead. He took some cull cows and got an average of 1500$ each. He was very happy. But now im focusing on greatly improving pastures


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## Markwright (Dec 21, 2014)

Get rid of the wild ones. just sort it.

then 1 month later sort em again and get rid of anything that acts wild.

A bull does not fix temperament problems in a herd.
Calves LEARN from their Mom.

You want your deal tame enough you can walk thru em and darn near trip over em. MO

Just trade the crazies Out.

There's plenty of nice tame cows for sale to replace those.


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

All the crazies have been culled out. But if pastures show production improvement the over all herd health will follow. More importantly the health of my wallet will fatten. Its alot of work for one person. Work cows all night and come home to these girls during day. I got 20more acres needin to do someting with. Thinking of putting a plow to it towards the end of winter to plant some tifton grass, field now is covered with centipeed grass. Tried to find turf co to come buy strip roll and haul. Nope. Hmm


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

Cows on winter grass rye grass


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## DBPMAINEANJOU (Jan 16, 2014)

Markwright said:


> Get rid of the wild ones. just sort it.
> 
> then 1 month later sort em again and get rid of anything that acts wild.
> 
> ...


I agree you for the most part but some cows seem more predisposed to being crankie someone I know got a shipment of embreos and all the calves had less than docile temprements .It turned out the breeder had a coyote problem so prefered his cows on the wild side as they protected there calves better.I think there is some genetic component that affects temprement as well as enviromental and learned behaviors.I have allways chosen bulls on temprement as much as conformation(both have to be good.)

But definately send the crazys off to the meat works


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## Markwright (Dec 21, 2014)

I figure like you: temperament elements are genetic related.

I also figure the gentle 1's are much more feed efficient than the others.

granted the beef bus seems to be chasing feed efficiency for things like a 5% gain when all they really have to do is crossbreed and pickup 25% gains on bout every trait.

there's a lot of sulfur in ddg's / wdg's etc..

ever notice that feed efficiency plateaued out in 2006?
bout the same era of a lot more ddg's in rations.

maybe feeding 2 much sulfur is the real feed efficiency negative.


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## DoubleR (Jan 15, 2014)

Markwright said:


> I figure like you: temperament elements are genetic related.
> I also figure the gentle 1's are much more feed efficient than the others.



Temperament is absolutely genetic. In the angus breed there are actually EPD for it. Docility. 
Being in AI it's much easier to see this. I've had calves from certain sires come out wild as can be and never calm down while another sire used the same year at the same time had very docile calves under the identical circumstances. Easier to see when you have the same cows produce calm calves then one year wild calves out of a particular sire. Around here we cull very hard on docility.
Docility has picked up in popularity for more reasons than fences and processing. It is being proven that a calmer calf is much more feed efficient than wilder calves. There are quite a few studies done on it now. Wilder cows/calves use up a lot more energy fighting (when processing) and running away. Spend less time just resting and eating. 
Having worked at the stockyards for years I can personally tell you I've seen a huge difference in weight on wild vs calm cattle. Interesting stuff


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## Markwright (Dec 21, 2014)

EXT comes to mind.


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## DoubleR (Jan 15, 2014)

Markwright said:


> EXT comes to mind.



VERY much so! Have culled every calf BAR EXT threw here for being wild. However we have cattle with his lineage (Bulls side) in them that are calm as can be. But he's the grandsire or great grandsire.


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## Markwright (Dec 21, 2014)

n bar cattle always had attitude problems, same for Sinclair.

the pa Sinclair dispersal had pretty snotty cattle clear thru. 

temperament is the most important trait.
( it influences several other traits positively....a lot of that is not known yet )

we'll create all kinds more jobs figuring it out in cattle.


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## DoubleR (Jan 15, 2014)

Very true! 
Fertility is also effected


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## Markwright (Dec 21, 2014)

*International Genetics Solutions,*

http://www.internationalgeneticsolutions.com/

afore is a fairly broad Cattle Breeding and performance tool.

covers all kinds of ground so to speak.


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

I like the web site. Alot of info


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

We still have 20 acres to be improved. Late this winter we're going to break ground and bottom plow that 20 acres still debating how to begin improvement on it. I thought about planting millet possible a patch of corn. But definitely improve it to establish 20 acre hay field at the house


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

We have about roughly somewhere close to 70 acres on other properties. Those hay fields were acquired property owners did not have any equipment to cut or bush hog their fields so we cut them for hay. But based on a lot of research and looking at the pastors at home we have determined that it is best to have hay fields on our own property.


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

We have noticed an improvement on the herd and health wise look they're not lean or bony their stained glass she and some a little heavy but overall they're staying and much better health than they have before.


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

Once all these passengers have been improved I can start focusing on fertility and why some of these heifers are not getting bread by the end of their first year but one step at a time the pastors are number one issue and you know the rest


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

Arrrg. I need to look closely better before sending 

Correction"passengers" and "pastors" pastures


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

Oh geez correction
"their stained glass she "
They are staying fleshy


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

Aarrrgggg!!! Just found 3rd aborted calf. Wtf! 
I was goin out to feed , move the cows to a different pasture chek the field for calves and feed hay...nope... saw buzzards and quickly wentto it... cow guarding the ... wel... sigh


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## DoubleR (Jan 15, 2014)

At what gestation are you loosing these calves?
Have you looked into possibilities of why yet?


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## rene (Mar 14, 2014)

Well that's part of the improvement im trying get out of these animals because currently the animals that I'm taken care of there are 5 other people own cattle here which I tend to altogether. But I am getting harder about keeping records which they don't have any records as far back as 9 years girl they stop keeping records so there is no telling how many times this cow has aborted there's no way to know no record of any animal of any sort of any condition so I'm trying to improve that as far as I know the past was not fully developed part of the hooves were not developed


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## brahman (Sep 11, 2014)

Are these hefiers getting enough groceries they May not be good


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## brahman (Sep 11, 2014)

Are they getting water from a swampy looking pond because water be the problem or if the cows happen to punch in the side of a another cow that trigger calving


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## DallasCowboy (Dec 28, 2015)

Don't waste money on AI with wild cows. Wild cows are under great stress when being worked. Oftentimes the AI won't take.
Run a good bull with your woods cows and at weaning time sell the cows and separate the calves into a new herd that you can manage for temperament. Crazy girls make a fine hamburger.


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## tnsalersbreeder (Dec 3, 2015)

rene said:


> I have a question for the masses. herd of cattle that is only bread to a regular bull. a bull that is bought at a farm. is it wise to bring in ai from a really good genetic BUll to improve the herd. okay I think I just answered my question. these cattle are not docile, they are somewhat a little bit wild. should I be getting that with new heifers, heifers I can start them early and bring their wild nature down. rather than to deal with a big cow that is a little bit wild?


Why would anyone want to raise rank cattle? An extended hospital stay will cost more than a herd of docile cows! 

Get you a salers bull, they put small, docile, calves on the ground that grow like wild fire! They are very athletic animals to boot. Our first bull bred 43 cows and all calved within a span of 33 days!


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